Torkil Johnsen

My personal piece of cyberspace

Taking Joomla Forward

Posted in joomla on Aug 13th, 2010

I write code, so I care mostly about what’s happening to the Joomla Framework. Or should I say not happening? The Joomla project needs more coders and less talkers, to put it bluntly, much like a boat won’t get anywhere with just captains and no rowers. More and more people in the Joomla community seems to realise this and are taking up responsibility and working outside the core code to make the improvements needed in various areas. Let’s take a look…

The frameworks and the CCKs

The Joomla Framework and the Joomla content component are two of the most vital parts of Joomla if you ask me. Now, look at the number of extensions that exists that are replacing these core parts in improved ways:

K2, jSeblod, FLEXIcontent, Sobi2 and others are dominating in the CCK/ACL section of things, improving content management in Joomla greatly. Gantry, Morph and T3 are template frameworks looking to make template production easier and templates more stable and feature rich. And for the core framework itself there are multiple replacements available, like Nooku, which is Joomla flavoured and my favourite. Others again, like JomSocial, are just to replacing the Joomla core framework with something entirely different.

So what am I really saying here?

This shows that Joomla is not providing the functionality that the community needs. It is not able to keep up with the pace of which the world is moving, so people go elsewhere to get their fix, or they create their own solutions to scratch their own itch. Joomla is, as Hannes Papenberg points out, already years behind in development, and while Joomla 1.6 may and may not be too far away, it is still outgunned by solutions already available to us. Even by Joomla extensions.

So, development is too slow. What can we do?

A clear choice, as suggested by Daniel Chapman and others, is for Joomla to pick up existing best-of-breed GPL frameworks that are Joomla compatible, and integrate them into the core, to make up for lost time.

This would bring J! up to date almost overnight, and reduce the confusion and bloat of having different fw’s for every major extension you install.
- Daniel Chapman

Don’t get me wrong: I’m a supporter of the idea of a slim and light core. Today’s core is packed with outdated extensions that have passed their expiration date a long time ago. When the framework changes, very often all the components have to be changed too. I hardly ever even use them personally. They have become a burden, and should be removed:

The content component is poor on features compared to most of the CCKs, and don’t get me started on com_contacts or com_weblinks. Com_search does an awful job at searching and does not prioritise the search hits at all. Routing is a pain, even for seasoned developers. Com_mailto, com_newsfeeds, com_contact, com_banners… They all have extensions that does the job better.

I’m not saying we should pack Joomla with cool new extensions, just that we need a solid foundation to build on and make it easier to create cool, quality extensions. And that’s where frameworks come in handy.

So why won’t Joomla adapt external frameworks?

Volunteer contributions are worthless

I am no Deep Throat insider, but in my opinion, the decision to give a salary to two core developers and not any other contributors at all, was a landmark in Joomla history. With this, Joomla effectively put a price tag on the projects estimated value of volunteer community contributions, and the value was $0. If I had still been a working group member and contributor, and then suddenly seeing Open Source Matters decide that two people should be paid for their work while the rest of us were deemed unworthy, I would not be very happy.

Paying developers like this can also get in the way of the natural flow of contributors in FOSS projects. A paid developer suddenly has lots of reasons to cling on to his job and shut other contributors out. Instead, lead developers should be encouraged to open things up, or even pass on their responsibility at some point to someone with new ideas and loads of fresh motivation. Money just may be too good of a motivation not to do so.

I think this is part of the cause of Joomla’s low bus factor. The decreasing community contributions is a problem that is beginning to sink in with the leadership too. Strength may not necessarily be in numbers, but a lack of numbers is taking it’s toll.

Community is taking charge

This and other things, for instance the Joomla leadership’s deliberate ignoring of the first community organized international Joomla event, J and Beyond 2010, is truly a sad turn of events for the project itself. Not only was the JAB10 event ignored, it was also officially and directly counteracted, by joomla.org promoting other events instead.

If someone decided to take it upon themselves to host an event to promote my product, and pay for it themselves too, I would make sure that they got as much attention and credit for their work as I could possibly give them.

On the bright side for Joomla though, community is stepping in where leadership is having issues. Like with ATAAW, JAB10 (see also #jab11!), JFWD, JCM and J!UX, consisting of volunteers aiming to contribute to Joomla in various ways.

Your turn

If you made it this far, you’re obviously interested in Joomla, and probably using it already. What are your hopes for the future? Do you thing there is still hope for even the most zealous Joomla fans out there? In which direction would you like the project to go?

  • http://brian.teeman.net Brian Teeman

    Not only does the community need to consider if there has been a negative effect as a result of paying two developers its also essential to see if there has been a positive effect. Has there been any noticeable changes as a result of paying developers in the last 10 months?

  • http://twitter.com/joocode Flavio Copes

    Well written toughts, I never understood why JAB10 was ignored, and other things.
    I like to think that if things are moving outside much faster than inside, then something will happen, something like a fork from the current management or a complete replacement of how things work.

  • http://twitter.com/alledia Steve Burge

    Hi Torkil

    The community has indeed done a great job in the last year of turning things around. Trust me when I say, with my OSM hat on, that JaB won’t be ignored again and we’ll keep doing our best to make sure we help these community projects when they need us and get out of their way when they don’t.

    I think we’re at the point where suggested development solutions are very welcome. Fotis from Joomlaworks had a similar idea to the one you mentioned from Daniel: http://blog.joomlaworks.gr/a-new-perspective-on-the-future-development-o

    Now is a good time to put proposals forward.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    I agree. Something will probably happen.

    Joomla has one good thing going for it, and that’s the value of the brand and the size of the community. Selling products via the JED or in the Joomlasphere in general gives you access to a large userbase, so developing for Joomla is profitable for those who want to make a living.

    The project would do well to remember however, how quickly the Joomla name was able to overtake and outgrow Mambo.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    Starting with evaluation of the status quo and for instance the past 10 months, as Brian mentions in his comment here, might not be a bad idea.

    The thought of a distributed core (as Fotis suggests) is nice. Personally I’m more in favour of a lighter core with extensions in packages as ready-made distributions perhaps.

    But right now, my main issue is with the Joomla Framework; I could never go back to building extensions for Joomla without using the Nooku Framework. It’s still not stable though, but it’s getting there.

  • Wilco Jansen

    If you look at some raw stats (see http://www.jfoobar.org/svnstats/developers.html), and the hiring was supposed to get code to be committed (see http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leadership/1074-investing-in-joomlas-development.html), then I think it is strange a non coder is kicking ass of those who are being paid.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    Does seem like Rob Schley (robs) is kicking some ass indeed, even if we do not count the library additions like phpmailer and simplepie.

    I think it would be even more interesting to hear more about what the original job description was 10 months ago, and which goals or demands that were set.

  • Anonymous

    I prefer not to dwell on the past and whats there, but yet valuable lessons are to be learned. A loose plan (far as I can tell) and unclear expectations of those (paid and unpaid) who are contributing appears to me to be a major factor here. How do we even measure our progress?

    Looking forward to me its clear: there needs to be clear goals (not just 1.7, but much further). Those goals should not just be which components to refactor or what features to add, they should be all encompassing and force us to always be thinking how to make Joomla a leader in innovation. I don’t want to settle for just getting Joomla up to speed.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    I don’t want to settle for just getting Joomla up to speed.

    Great point, and I think lots of potential contributors will agree with you there.

  • http://www.nooku.org mediamagnate

    And indeed it will.

  • Anonymous

    Torkil – you asked – In which direction we would like the project to go.

    I still believe Joomla!, as a community of developers, has a great deal of talent and competitive solutions. There is a lot of innovation going on outside of core.

    As you point out, though, most of the really clever solutions are coming up with their own approaches to dealing with an outdated framework. Such is the case with the Template Frameworks we see emerging, to the CMS substitutes, like K2, to the core frameworks, like Nooku.

    I have long felt the overall architecture was shattered. I believe we are well past the point where it makes sense to think about Joomla! in terms of it’s components or even as a CMS.

    Joomla! is a very strong brand. That’s where we start.

    I believe we need to embrace a simplified and flexible core framework, absent a CMS, and get serious about distributions. That should allow us to turn this fractured architecture into a rich array of choices, much like are available in Linux. You go with your strengths, and that’s where our strengths lie, that’s where our contributors are, working on advancements within their control, in small teams of people who enjoy working together.

    Regarding the developer payments, I continue to believe it’s a big mistake, and I said that on Alledia’s blog before this ever came to be. The way this was done and the fact that there is no clear indicators of quality or quantity of work should help OSM to put this away for good. Experiment failed.

    If we go to a small core/multi-distribution approach and we get into an habit of “taking our turn” to help in that role, and then cycling in the next set of volunteers, (with overlap for continuity), we should be able to bring in good ideas and relieve tired contributors on a regular basis. That should help us innovate forward and embrace the value coming out of our extension developer community.

  • http://twitter.com/emma_design Marie-Anne Melis

    Very good read

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    It is indeed weird how OSM decided to keep the deal about paying developers under wraps for two months, before finally telling the community.

  • Anonymous

    We have a new board now that seems to value openness and transparency.Not sure when the current contracts come to an end, but I would expect this new board to openly discuss the issue with community (both internally within the project, and broadly with everyone) before extending or deciding against doing so.

  • Wilco Jansen

    The “high” ranking of Rob was due to the fact that he added/changed all copyright notices in all source files. Important, but not something really substantial from a functional pint of view (and he was also paid – not by OSM btw – to do some work there. Hope this puts the numbers into perspective.

  • Wilco Jansen

    I agree that a list of desired features for 1.7 is not what to expect from a long term vision. I hope the current PLT will define a development strategy in terms of the framework development, how it sees the CMS/framework develop knowing what the market is demanding, the innovations within the IT in general etc.

    All I see currently is focus on functional logic, and Torkil points out in his blog that most of the extentions already are outdated even before they reach a stable state. I would like to see a solid discussion on where the Joomla codebase should evolve, from there a strategy and vision should be set, and things will become more and more clear for people who want to contribute.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    Paid by whom then?

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    Steve Burge (se other comment on this article) seems to value that approach, yes. Perhaps he can shed some light on the matter? It would be nice to see the actual contracts too.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    Indeed. A basic feature such as comments was decided to be cut from the 1.6 release, and I think that says it all. It was even cut after feature freeze :P

    Stuff like ACL and multi-categories would be a lot easier to finish (properly!) if one did not have to update so many components with the same features too.

  • http://twitter.com/jen4web Jen Kramer McKibben

    I’m in agreement that Joomla is out of date relative to some other open source CMS solutions. I’m in agreement that combining some 3rd party extensions and frameworks into Joomla is an excellent solution.

    Then we come to deciding which frameworks and which CCKs. And that’s where a huge debate will erupt in the Joomla community.

    Personally, I have never understood why there is such opposition to distributions in the Joomla community. Somehow, creating an installation bundle with Joomla and certain 3rd party extensions and frameworks is pure heresy, anti-Joomla, anti-community, one of the worst sins you could possibly create in the Joomla-sphere.

    But why? This is what I don’t understand. Linux does it very successfully. Linux geeks all have their favorite distribution, even as they rally under the Linux flag as a united community.

    Why can’t Joomla do the same thing?

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    Easier extension management would also do the trick, like WordPress. We should also compare Joomla to enterprise solutions out there, not just OS CMS solutions.

    Right now, the part that takes the most time for me when doing a Joomla install, is removing all the stuff I don’t want :P

  • http://twitter.com/FxNxRl Alan Langford

    First off, I don’t think the bus factor is as bad as it looks. There are lots of people who could step in if they thought their contributions were going to be taken seriously.

    Second, I have no idea why paying a few developers gets so much attention. Alternative CMSes have full-time professional development teams. These same CMSes add features and functionality faster than Joomla does. Spending a little money to see if that’s an alternative for Joomla wasn’t a bad experiment. Obviously with the sometimes hysterical, often vitriolic response from the so-called “community”, that’s not really an option. Yet the best alternative proposal is “someone has to fix the problem”. I quote Pogo: “we have seen the enemy and he is us.”

    Third, at the risk of being obvious, it’s pretty easy to write an extension that fixes some single aspect of the core (I know, both JTML, and my “sleeper CCK” Abivia Content Pattern plugins attempt to do this). It’s not as easy to make something that works across the framework. We’re going to see lots of pain as these point solutions attempt to go “1.6 native” (the howls of ACL integration have only just begun). So far only Nooku seems to have done the heavy lifting required to meet that standard.

    Being obvious again, Joomla is software. The only way core functionality is going to improve is if the code gets better. Whether or not we have a “community” isn’t really as relevant as it seems. What’s required are people working together to write good code. So if you think you have what it takes to meet the standards demanded by Joomla users, stop whining, form teams as required, create a branch and/or fork as required, commit code, and prove it. Depending on goals and approach, I’d even be happy to lend a (small, unfortunately) hand to some of this work.

    Oh and by the way there’s lots of good stuff done by Anthony down in that experimental branch. much of it is worthy of resurrection.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    I agree Alan, to the letter: I too think that the bus factor would be better if people thought their contributions were going to be taken seriously.

    Historically, it takes a sizeable Spartan army, and some tough skin, to get a simple patch approved. Well, except if your name is CloudAccess, then you’re free to fast-track site-breaking non-tested features at will it seems.

    Paying developers is not a problem in my book either. In this case though, it was more a case of how it was done. Signing a secret deal, that not even all board members got to see, yet know about. Informing the community only when caught red handed, and even then saying it was just an experiment, and not the one year contract it turned out to be. No accountability, no oversight, and acting like it’s the best thing since sliced bread, while other developers are leaving the ship one by one.

    As mentioned in the original blog post: I think deciding to pay two developers under the table could easily make other developers feel underappreciated or left out.

    In hindsight, all we can do is consider if it was worthwhile these past months. People have started looking into that already, judging by other comments in this discussion.

    While community engagement was reaching an all time low, one of the top spendings posts in the Joomla accounting was accredited to the ongoing fighting of people trying to use the Joomla name for their community events or websites. I myself tried to organise an event called “JoomlaPulse”. We were going to pay for it ourselves, and applied for use of the Joomla name through the right channels and all, but never got a response. Not until seven months later, when I received a private message on the Joomla forum asking me to change the event name, with reference to the fact that I have not gotten proper permissions.

    Can you blame people for whining instead of contributing?

    As for your final and most obvious point: Yes I agree. At the end of the day it comes down to the code: Joomla lacks standards and conventions, the CMS part is outgunned by many extensions, and the framework could really use some Nooku magic. That’s why the company I work for partnered up with Nooku many months ago. We made a concious choice regarding what horse to put our money on. Time will tell if it was a good choice.

    Nooku Framework, Nooku Content, K2, FLEXIcontent, Gantry, Morph, Anahita etc…, they are all “branches” in the regard that they have taken an area in which Joomla is lacking, and are now working on improved it. Teams have been formed, code has been written and committed, and given out to the public to play with, modify and redistribute. Could it have been done in Joomla branches instead? Sure. Is it really strange that it wasn’t?

    I don’t think so.

  • http://twitter.com/alledia Steve Burge

    Hi Torkil

    Lots of topics here so I’ll take them one-by-one:

    PAID DEVELOPERS

    Like yourself and Alan elsewhere in these comments, I’m ambivalent as to whether the project pays developers or not. To me, it’s all about results.

    As far as the process goes, we realise that the situation with paid developers wasn’t handled. However, please realise that only one of the current OSM members was on the board at that time and we’re trying to hard to turn the situation around. That means:

    1) Any new steps will be made transparently and with public consultation.

    2) We won’t be able to make the contracts visible but we can make all the important elements public. That means we’ll develop goals, metrics and progress reports and make sure they are publicly available.

    We’re an open source project and that means open source principles don’t stop at the code. Our open source philosophy needs to be applied throughout the project.

    EVENTS LIKE JOOMLAPULSE

    I don’t know the story behind that, but new people are in charge of that now. Robert from JandBeyond is in charge of events now and Marko is in charge of trademarks. You also have my personal guarantee that if you want to hold an event like this, I’ll chase it up and make it happen.

    COMMUNITY

    Things are turning around. JandBeyond, the Joomla Magazine, the new user groups, the usability team, the bug squad effort, the new trademark team and much more. Many people in the comments here have played an active role in helping with that shift.

    IMPROVING THE CODEBASE

    I took the offer join to OSM because I wasn’t happy with the way things are going. Joomla pays my mortgage and if it’s not doing well, I’m not doing well. The same goes for many other new OSM and Community Leadership Team members … we run Joomla businesses and have a real incentive to make sure things work right.

    We do need to figure out how to make something similar happen with development. We need Joomla businesses and developers whose success depends on Joomla. We’ve come a long way in 2010, but we’ve further to go and development is our challenge now. Right now is a good time to put proposals forward.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    Great stuff, and you’re right, there has been change in many parts of the organisation.

    Too bad you can’t make the contracts visible though, as I think that would make for a new milestone in Joomla history. Kind of an end to the old and closed and start of the new and open. Does sound though like you’re going to keep the contracts running…? Can’t wait to see what you come up with to give the codebase a push in the right direction.

    PS: Concerning the JoomlaPulse name, I got it ok’d by Ryan Ozimek at JAB10, verbally, while we were all having a beer :) I’m sure he remembers ;)

  • http://twitter.com/alledia Steve Burge

    Thanks Torkil – I can’t speak for the board on the contracts, but we are working hard on it, things are moving quickly and I’ll ensure we’re very open in in the process.

    For the codebase, I actually hope I’m not part a key part of that discussion. We really need me and the OSM board doing what we do, and coders like yourself, Jeremy, Alan and many others doing what you do.

    Great news about JoomlaPulse!

  • http://twitter.com/klas_bzzzz Klas Berli?, Bzzzz

    Keep in mind that some of this stats are heavily distorted by 3rd party work merges – most were done by Andrew E.g. my cache branches merge patches had 5500 and 2091 lines. Also Louises 2010 january “win” comes purely from copyright updates. So actual stats from paid developers are even worse.

  • Hackwar

    Concerning the problem with the paid developers: It is pretty easy. We have one developer that is trying to take over all decisions and does not let anybody else really contribute. Innovation is not wanted. For example, I still have to listen to complains about JCategories being wrong, while he never came forward with an alternate solution, although I’ve been putting JCategories in my archive on his request and bugged him half a year about those issues. And this man is now practically made his own boss. If you look at what he has been doing in the time of his contract, he has only been doing bug fixing, none of the major features came from his brain.

    And then there is the other developer that we pay $5000 per month according to OSMs public records and where after searching for two months and even having insight into some internal projects, I haven’t seen more than two days worth of work coming from that developer in now 12 months!

    I don’t have an issue with people being paid. I’ve kept on working on Joomla even though I wasn’t paid. And I also don’t have an issue to submitting to a lead developer. But I expect that lead developer to make logical and good decisions, to have a vision and in general to be an outstanding developer. There is none of this to be seen anywhere. Instead I have to listen to non-developers telling me what code that I designed and wrote is supposedly doing, calling me a lier.

    Would you help out in that light? I’m a fool that I am still doing that, but I have hopes for this project and I wont give up.

  • http://twitter.com/FxNxRl Alan Langford

    It’s not strange that these things developed outside the code base, particularly since commit access was harder to obtain when most of them were first conceived. What is strange to me is that there’s so much fragmentation and overlap in the efforts, particularly in the area of CCK (hell, even I have a CCK solution).

    Partially I think that even though we all either have (or plan to) release our GPL code openly (by that I mean “unencumbered public access to full source code”), most of us still need to make money to be able to continue to write code, and this revenue motive interferes with more collaborative work.

    But I happen to think that Joomla can still meet individual commercial objectives and simultaneously function on a more collaborative level.

    A couple of months ago I had the pleasure of having Nooku, Anahita, and Dioscouri in the same conversation on one of Bob Bloom’s Round Table radio shows. One of the questions I asked had to do with the proliferation of incompatible workarounds to deficiencies in the core. Unfortunately nobody gave me the answer I was hoping to hear, which is that the core could be re-engineered to be less monolithic, and instead become a framework that integrated services.

    I somehow think that the real core of Joomla should be defining these services and the interfaces between them (obvious choices being taxonomy, ACL, a content repository, workflow, abstract data store, and extension management/update — including extensions of extensions).

    The stock distribution should provide competent implementations of these services, but developers should be free to build core enhancements, knowing that their code won’t break a site when it’s plugged in to replace the vanilla version.

    In this environment a collaborative Joomla becomes much more plausible, because initially all we’re agreeing on is a set of specifications and a reference implementation. The pace of innovation increases because we can start brainstorming the next iteration of the specification the moment the previous one is cast in stone. It also means that Joomla evolution becomes a battle of ideas instead of a battle of implementations… ideas are far more flexible than implementations. Let us put our ideas to the test in forum posts and heated arguments, and may the most promising ideas emerge as peer-reviewed API specifications, and only then as code.

    This way each of us is free to write a CCK (or whatever) that makes us the most popular (and well paid) kid on the block, but the less technical site builder who is putting pieces together to build a site for a client doesn’t have to worry if picking one over another will leave him in a dead end two versions down the road.

    I would be pleased if this was the next evolutionary step for the Joomla project, but it would be foolish of me to not obesrve that the process could happen independently. Short of some mechanism to make sure that those with the capability to vote on a feature of a specification have some record of contributing code to the project, the whole thing could be run on little more than a mailing list and a suite of online documents.

  • http://twitter.com/klas_bzzzz Klas Berli?, Bzzzz

    Keep in mind that some of this stats are heavily distorted by 3rd party work merges – most were done by Andrew E.g. my cache branches merge patches had 5500 and 2091 lines. Also Louises 2010 january “win” comes purely from copyright updates. So actual stats from paid developers are even worse.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    Not sure wether to admire or to pity you for staying with a leader you obviously do not believe in. At least someone finally had their say about the matter, that’s for sure.

    What do you think about the changes that has happened in the organisation during the past few months then? Does that have an encouraging effect?

    Your statements invites another question: What do you think about the scenario of Joomla changing lead developer with Joomla 1.6 still in beta stage? Bad idea, necessary evil, or could the project perhaps get a positive boost from it?

  • Hackwar

    The changes did have a positive effect and I think they are encouraging.

    I think it is no issue to change the leadership now. I respect Jean-Marie who has been working harder on 1.6 than the “lead developer” and who has made a huge impact in the translation area. I would love to see him around as a community member and maybe as a coordinator for translation issues under a new PLT. I also respect and value Mark Dexter a lot, who has been working hard on the tracker and on managing people. Looking at the unpaid members of the PLT in general, I have a lot of respect for them and I am hoping that even if there is a new PLT at some point, that they will stick around and be productive members of the developer community. The biggest issue with all of these people however is, that I don’t see them as the leader types. They are good, if not even exceptionell developers, but they are not good leaders. For example: During the last JBS meeting, I requested an overview from the PLT where we are and what still needs to be done and to prepare some structured testing to properly test different subsystems of the current trunk to find and fix bugs. The response was, that that wasn’t the task of the PLT and/or that someone from the community should come forward. There is a difference between setting up a coordinating system for testing and managing the tracker or between giving an official guestimate of where we are and asking someone random from the community to give such an opinion. These are tasks that the PLT needs to do.

    So in the end, I think a PLT that would acknowledge its duties and actually acts in the public and not somewhere behind closed doors would be a huge benefit and a big boost for development. I for one would come back as a developer and invest quite some quality time, especially in the still shacky parts of Joomla. And if we get 4-5 more of that (Klas, you yourself, the big guys from JBS, maybe even one or two of the Nooku people, as much as I have personal problems with Nooku…) 1.6 could be released in a pretty short period of time. Currently, the PLT seems to not even think that it is going to ship a 1.6 stable in this year….

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    Steve, I do not mean to put you on the spot here since it is not your area of work as you say, but since you are in OSM I have to ask:

    When testimonials like that of Hannes is put forth, along with statistics like the ones mentioned by Wilco and Klas in this discussion, and you see the average number of contributors falling drastically, one has to ask who has been responsible for overseeing development this far?

    And for the future: Who is going to make sure that development is progressing according to contract, and that the team is properly managed? Since this is paid work, I think it would be stupid not to follow up on it, and I am happy to hear that you’re going to make it all more transparent. Just wondering who will get the job done? And will you stay with the contract model, or perhaps go back to another way of doing things?

    As you said yourself: Joomla is paying lots of people’s mortgages, so it is in a lot of people’s interest to make sure that this is followed up properly and transparently.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    Oh… Personal problems with Nooku. What’s that all about? A bit off topic perhaps, but I’m just curious. It’s not the code you don’t like I hope? :)

    Other than that: If the PLT can’t lead the JBS, I guess leadership is somewhat lacking, or non-existent.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    I really like what you say you’ve done with the caching. It’s the most under-reported and probably also maybe the best feature in 1.6. Have not seen it in action yet, but I have really high hopes! :)

  • Hackwar

    I like some of the concepts of Nooku, although I can’t really say that I looked at all of it. As I mentioned on Twitter, I looked at KDatabase and its pretty nice, and while it makes the initial development of the standard save-a-form-to-a-table-row pretty easy, I have the feeling that I might have to work quite a bit harder once I’m steering off the road there. But again, I didn’t really look into it this deeply. What I dislike about Nooku is, that the framework is not really aimed at going back into Joomla. Nooku is another framework besides Joomla and it feels as if there is more interest in building your own CMS and framework altogether while using Joomla as a marketing push until its ready to stand alone. I’m currently writing my own framework, improving Joomla at several places, but I’m creating my framework in a way that I can later donate it to the project and drop it back into the Joomla system. Besides that, my framework is aimed at empowering also existing extensions, while Nooku expects you to basically rewrite from the ground up.

    All this however is no real issue. If people are interested, I would love to see some of the concepts of Nooku to move into the Joomla framework. What I mainly meant with personal problems is the problem that I have with Johan. We had quite some arguments when he was lead developer of 1.5 and I started with Joomla and he was not really encouraging me to donate my time, quite the opposite. But maybe this is now the time to start over and forget the past. :-)

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    Nooku is indeed a competitor to the Joomla Framework, since it lets you build products for the same platform 80% faster. It will probably become a stand-alone product at some point in history. I believe it already may have, since it’s been used with WP in a POC. Nooku does however represent pretty drastic changes in how you’re used to doing things in Joomla development, so building with the goal of merging it with Joomla at some point seems impossible.

    At the end of the day I believe it’s merely a good representation of open source thinking: Take what you like, rebuild what you want, improve what you can and then share with everyone. It’s a result of someone scratching their own itch, quite typical these kinds of things.

    I’ll leave the personal disagreement up to Johan to comment on for himself if he wants to, although I’d be surprised if any of the “lead developers” showed up in this discussion since they haven’t already :)

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    I hit “like” on your post, and I disagree on one thing perhaps:

    I like the concept of “show me the code”.

    Like, I would suggest to Johan that Nooku FW should have code to make it easy for any component to do revisions of their content. So he says “great idea, show me the code”.

    So I begun writing some code, got a lot of help along the way, and a while later, revisions were basically working. Implementing them in your component is a one-line task. Well, not yet, because they’re not finished, but it will :)

    I prefer that way of working. Start out basic and easy and try to implement something in code right away, as opposed to the chats, meetings, committees and white papers and all the other red tape that just obstructs real progress.

    …but then again, we agree on that too, don’t we Alan? ;)

  • http://blog.joomlatools.eu Johan Janssens

    Hannes, I think we can let the past be the past. Lot’s of things happened , some good, some bad. We cannot change Joomla’s past but we can build it’s future.

    Just like the framework you are building, Nooku is my personal effort to do just that : evolve Joomla. If I would still be a core developer today Nooku would probably have been built as a part of the Joomla core. We both know reality is different.

    Let’s have a beer together next time we meet. I’m happy to sort out any issues you might still have.

  • http://twitter.com/klas_bzzzz Klas Berli?, Bzzzz

    Thnx, I hope it lives up to your expectations.

    In any case – let me know. As with any new code I do expect bugs, so I hope for as much testing as I can get as early as possible. Only bugs found can lead to perfection :)

  • Hackwar

    Looking forward to that. :-)

  • Hackwar

    I know that Nooku is drastically different, which is why I wouldn’t merge everything of it back into Joomla. I also don’t think that you want to move the framework fast in this way, but I think there is great potential in moving the parts that don’t disrupt general operations into the 1.x branch. The disruptive parts could be what forms Joomla 2.0. I hope this answers your question on Twitter. ;-)

    While I’ve been developing J 1.6, I’ve started with moving in a direction that Nooku has shown before with stuff like JControllerAdmin and JModelAdmin, although it was a half-hearted approach, since I thought the lead developers that wrote JModelForm knew what they were doing. If they had, they would have merged those two right away.
    Lets take the great ideas of Nooku and improve the Joomla core with this. :-)

  • http://twitter.com/FxNxRl Alan Langford

    Hopefully this one won’t be another essay…

    I’m thinking of defining core services here. Let’s say, for example, that we had defined interfaces for various services including ACL. So Joomla x.y ships with code that implements these services, but lets say that the ACL part doesn’t scale all that well, or that the administrative interface to ACL is so confusing that the user community has difficulty working with it. Now it’s possible for someone else to come up with a replacement for that piece, to replace the implementation with some thing simpler (or more complex) and know that if it passes a test suite, it will work in a production environment.

    Then look at this with other services. A taxonomy service could incorporate our hierarchical categories, plus sophisticated tagging and tag classification, all useful across all extensions. A extended content service could allow for CCK, version tracking, but still be compatible with the minimal API.

    Over time, the extensions that added the most useful functionality would have those enhancements integrated into the specification for the core service. We’d probably select the best features from a number of competing visions and integrate them. To some extent this is what’s about to happen with the “template framework” solutions out there, except I don’t think anyone has a lot of confidence that we’ll get a mixed solution that has that “best of both” characteristic. Instead that seems best to a limited group will get committed to the trunk and that will be it.

    What’s missing from Joomla is architectural direction, and while you learn a lot about what works and doesn’t work at an architectural level by writing code, a good architecture still results from a bunch of people in real or virtual spaces with real or virtual white-boards, arguing out the merits and pitfalls of various approaches until they come up with something that works.

  • http://twitter.com/FxNxRl Alan Langford

    I’d love to help out, but part of my frustration is that these days it’s extremely difficult for me to help by writing code. I have so many things going on that it can take a day and a half to get back an reply to a comment thread.

    If I can help within my limitations, I certainly will.

  • http://joejoomla.com JoeJoomla

    All the different directions that developers are taking Joomla! in regards to replacing core functionality doesn’t bode well for the end user. How does one know that committing to this CCK or that one is a good choice? They don’t. If the developer(s) of that component decides that there is a better way to make a living than what they have been doing with Joomla! then the client is in a bad spot. They may as well have gone with a proprietary solution because now they are unwillingly in one.

    Are frameworks like Nooku and and others going to try and become their own stand alone systems? If so, they’ll need to become bigger than Joomla! to gain the audience that Joomla! attracts. Joomla! is the recognized brand the end user needs to trust. It’s in everyone’s interests to ensure that Joomla! is sound and healthy.

    How do you make Joomla! development go faster? The only thing I can think of is cooperation. Heaven knows how challenging this is. I applaud those who have jumped in to try and make this all work.

    Contracts are an interesting topic. Who owns Joomla! and can make private deals? Its better to be completely transparent about contracts. You’ll still have naysayers but for the most part it will be more acceptable and not nearly as volatile and divisive.

    Do I think there is still hope for even the most zealous Joomla fans out there? Yes I do because Joomla! is still here despite some of the knocks that it has taken. Joomla! has done well and my hope for the future is that good people will continue to come in and have a baton worth handing off to them.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    I disagree on the bigger part: You don’t need to become bigger than Joomla to be a healthy standalone system. The Joomla name does have it’s worth yes, but if the Joomla core code is rotten, I don’t think it’ll live on for ever, nor that it’s in everyone’s best interest to ensure that it does. Remember for instance how quickly Joomla overtook Mambo. People saw Joomla as the new way to go, even though it was the same product, and jumped ship overnight.

    I think it’s in everyone’s best interest to support progress wherever progress is happening. After all, if all I knew about CMSs by now was based on phpNuke, I might as well find another career path. While your relationship to Joomla might feel like a romantic love-and-hate kind of thing at times, marrying a CMS or Framework for life is shortsighted. Instead you should strive to provide what is best for your clients, and try to stay on top of your game at all times.

  • http://joejoomla.com JoeJoomla

    Are you really saying that the Joomla! core is rotten?

    Joomla! became bigger than Mambo but the exodus wasn’t because the Mambo code was rotten. Joomla! was identical in code to Mambo for a long while. My understanding was that some interests were trying to turn Mambo into a commercial venture.

    I also believe that it’s not good to fall in love with your tools because you may be blinded to something that comes along which is much better. There’s nothing at the moment that looks like this to me other than the alternatives systems which are already proven and are out there.

    I agree that supporting progress is good. You say that Joomla! needs more coders and less talkers. I don’t disagree. I suppose I am out of place in this discussion since I haven’t contributed anything to the code for Joomla.

    I sincerely hope that all the great talent that I see within the Joomla! community can get it together. I am a big fan of Joomla. If I didn’t think it’s best days are in front of it I wouldn’t be here. Thanks for providing an open forum to voice an opinion.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    I have not looked at the 1.6 code, so I can’t say whether the code is rotten or not.

    I’m just saying that in the long run, progress prevails. If a system can’t keep up with standards and expectations development-wise, it’s living on borrowed time. All the frameworks and CCKs popping up all over the place around Joomla suggests that neither the Joomla framework nor the Joomla CMS are managing to keep up with user expectations.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    …just wanted to add one thing:

    Look at how template producers are starting to make their templating frameworks CMS independent and have begun pushing templates for other platforms. At least Warp (YOOtheme) and Gantry (Rockettheme) are CMS independent now. Nooku FW has also been run under WordPress and is probably not far away from being able to run as a standalone framework.

    Sure, branching out is one strategy to expand your business, but it’s also a measure you take to avoid putting all your eggs in one basket. Could be an indication that business based in the Joomlasphere are nervous about Joomla’s future.

  • http://twitter.com/alledia Steve Burge

    Hi Torkil

    I’ve been giving this advice for years now:
    http://www.alledia.com/blog/general-cms-issues/…

    plus I think it’s only natural that Joomla companies are first:
    http://www.alledia.com/blog/general-cms-issues/…

    Expect non-Joomla companies to come in the other direction. WooThemes is already across several platforms and will be in Joomla shortly. More will follow.

    The grass isn’t always greener however. Most CMS markets nowadays are dominated by large companies with millions of very hungry Venture Capital dollars behind them. That might help grow market-share but there are downsides – look at Automattic’s recent release of Vaultpress. One day there was a thriving marketplace for backup plugins and the next day it was over. Expect the tension between the VC and community sides of many CMS projects to grow.

    The ideal situation for us is for Joomla, Drupal and WordPress all to thrive.

  • http://twitter.com/alledia Steve Burge

    Hi Torkil

    “one has to ask who has been responsible for overseeing development this far? Who is going to make sure that development is progressing according to contract, and that the team is properly managed?”

    The way the situation has worked up until now is that the PLT and OSM did that together. In the future – we’re trying to work that out right now. I suspect it will be similar but with much clearer goals, metrics and transparency.

    “Just wondering who will get the job done? And will you stay with the contract model, or perhaps go back to another way of doing things?”

    I’d say that much of it will be up for debate, particularly at the PLT summit coming up in San Jose.

    “As you said yourself: Joomla is paying lots of people’s mortgages, so it is in a lot of people’s interest to make sure that this is followed up properly and transparently.”

    It is indeed. I took the role on OSM thinking I could help improve areas like this. I’d love to see a strong and healthy Joomla 5 years from now.

  • http://brian.teeman.net Brian Teeman

    As a general principle it is not good practice for a team to monitor itself especially when there is money involved.

  • http://twitter.com/alledia Steve Burge

    True – the PLT members I’ve spoken to about it realise that was a mistake. It’s likely to change.

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  • http://twitter.com/me_arno Arno Zijlstra

    Thanks Torkil for writing your thoughts down.

    It’s just amazing what is happening and how it’s possible that a few people in leadership positions don’t seem to have a clue what the state of joomla is and what is happening in the most active part of the community. They keep blaming the community for not helping out while many people are jumping to start rolling and even actually trying with patching, debugging etc etc but their efforts seem not appreciated and are slammed down in the most frustrating ways.

    Those few people seem to think they own joomla and have a higher status than anyone else in the community, amazingly stupid.

    The state of joomla is sad and thats said nice, development is done without vision but just release by release adding something and fixing something here and there. ACL is implemented but none seems to have an idea about what is actually implemented en how it should work. From a technical point Joomla! is nowhere near market, developer and end-user needs and demands that are standard these days. 1.7, 1.8 and even 2.0 wont change that if the current leadership is just peddling along like they have been doing for a long time now.

    There have been some positive changes recently like Steve and I hope for sure he can keep up his stance that he is on his position to serve the community and not become someone that thinks the community is bad and he owns the project, I have faith in him. These changes however are not in the development area and thats the biggest blackhole in the project right now. We need the old school people without vision to step down and make space for fresh and eager expert developers to get their chance on responsibility and openness towards the community while getting (with the help of the dev community) Joomla! up to par with (and beyond) modern standards fast. (there’s lots of them in the community willing todo that unpaid even)

    Recent happenings on the bugsquad lists make painfully clear that there are a few people that just don’t get it and just don’t seem to want to get it, but it’s easy.. just blame the community or bully on individuals that call themselves pussy (as in wimp) or try to help.

    /me shakes head

  • Alessandro

    It’s not “drastically different”. It’s just “better”.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    The “recent happenings on the bug squad” being referred to, is this discussion.

    It’s been moderated now though, but still contains some gems if you click “show quoted text” here and there.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    …and more reading here, which includes further links too.

  • Ssnobben

    “Alan qoute
    Then look at this with other services. A taxonomy service could incorporate our hierarchical “categories” –> not! – use menu modules and menus instead!), plus sophisticated tagging and tag classification, all useful across all extensions.”

    that is really great Alan but we should get rid of the (sections/)categories in Jommla if I could decide. There is no need for them!

    ——–> I have discussed this matter about removing the section/categories in Joomla and the only one that understand this KISS approach is Hackwar I believe. This have be asked to MasterChief himself but never got answered too.

    “Hackwar qoute
    For example, I still have to listen to complains about JCategories being wrong, while he never came forward with an alternate solution, although I’ve been putting JCategories in my archive on his request and bugged him half a year about those issues”

    I will create a group in joomla people with title “Remove categories in Joomla now!” .) to discuss this further. I also started a blog in ATAAW to spread and discuss this further.

    http://www.alltogetherasawhole.org/profiles/blogs/why-do-joomla-need
    http://docs.joomla.org/Categories_and_Sections

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    New development:

    Andrew Eddie, project leadership team member and one of OSM’s two hired developer guns, has decided to step down from his positions:
    http://opensourcematters.org/news/160-andrew-ed…

    Development has not been working, and it’s only logical that leaders take responsibility, if you ask me.

  • Ssnobben

    I think the PLT team must have more deciding members and also meet more often to set up the then always changes for new vision, strategy, roadmap and priorities.

  • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

    Things took a new turn today, as Klas Berli? and Amy Stephen both were banned from, well a lot. Basically they were banned from contributing any further. These are two of the top contributors to 1.6, for month after month, so the people left in the Joomla Bug Squad will have to get busier.

    Did anyone else get banned btw?

    Klas also published the letter he received about being banned from the bugtracker, on the bugtracker. He did so in reply to a question saying “any progress on this issue?”…

    ————–

    Hello Klas.

    I am writing to inform you that the JBS Coordinators (Ian, Andrew, and I), in
    consultation with the Production Leadership Team, have decided to temporarily
    suspend your privileges to post to the JBS and Joomla! development resources.
    This includes the JBS Google Group, the JBS IRC channel, the Joomlacode issue
    trackers, the Joomla! CMS Development Google Group, the Joomla! General
    Development Google Group, and the Joomla! Framework Development Google Group.

    The suspension will be in effect from now until the end of the year (31
    December 2010). At that time, if you wish, you may request to have your
    privileges reinstated and we will give that request full and fair
    consideration.

    This decision was made in order to reduce the amount of conflict, negativity,
    and distraction in the official project communication channels. Whether or not
    intentional, there is a clear and long-standing pattern of your posts
    contributing to these problems.

    One of our top priorities as leaders of this project is to create a friendly,
    pleasant environment for volunteers to work. It is also important for those of
    us in leadership to be able to spend our time furthering important project
    priorities instead of dealing with the fall-out from controversy and conflict
    in the official communication channels. It is our judgment that this suspension
    will help us achieve these ends.

    Respectfully,

    Mark Dexter, JBS Coordinator, Joomla! Development Coordinator

  • LovesMtns

    I am incredibly impressed with the Drupal’s “Code of Conduct” (http://drupal.org/dcoc). Joomla needs to step up and implement their own “Joomla Code of Conduct”. This would put pressure on bullies and others guilty of inappropriate behavior to stop, as any good “code of conduct” should prohibit such behavior. I am just a Joomla user, but these forums have amazed me at the level of inappropriate hostility and personal attacks. We need you developers to get your act together and start acting like a team instead of a pool of sharks. We need you! Please!
    Roger Matthews, Joomla User

    • http://torkiljohnsen.com Torkil Johnsen

      Joomla has it’s own “Code of Conduct”, and like Drupal’s, it’s based on the Ubuntu Code of Conduct, and thus very similar:
      http://docs.joomla.org/Code_of_conduct

      They are just words on paper, and if the Project Leadership Team don’t adhere to it themselves, then how can one expect that from the rest of the community?


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